Buffy the Vampire Slayer Season 10 #4: "New Rules" Pt 4

[MikeB]

All caught up



@Bunny Hearts

Breaking Bad is a more current reference than 24

24 has been on the year within the past year: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1598754/?ref_=nv_sr_2 Referencing Jack Baur makes far more sense – including 24 airs on a Newscorp property. The “Heisenberg in yoga pants” simply makes almost no sense.


* In terms of debate, comparable means “similar enough for a fair comparison to be made”.

So this, “It just means there's one or more aspects that have interesting parallels and/or similarities that create a more textured depth to ponder when considering characters' situations.” is simply not what comparable means. Therefore, what I said: My quote: “Dawn’s current situation isn’t comparable to Buffy’s in BtVS S6. In some ways, it’s much worse. Buffy isn’t the Key formed to look like the Slayer’s sister. In some ways, it’s much better because Dawn wasn’t ripped from heaven and then had to continue living in ‘hell’.” is true.

The point that I was comparing the sisters's situations on was both of them trying to hide their problems and pretend like everything's okay because they don't want to hurt the people around them, and in doing so isolate themselves when they need support and making their emotional problems worse. That's a totally valid and relevant comparison to make.

They aren’t comparable even in this regard. Dawn’s ‘emotional problems’ is focused on one person: Xander. Buffy’s in BtVS S6 regards her having been in a heavenly dimension and now she’s in a ‘hell dimension’. And that her best friends pulled her out of heaven. Buffy needed something in her life that made her not want to die. Clearly, that something is her relationship with Spike. This isn’t a Buffy/Spike thread, so I’ll leave it at that. There’s no indication in BtVS S10 that Dawn is suicidal. Dawn wasn’t even suicidal in BtVS S5.


* What Dracula did with the Vampr book essentially has no comparison that I can think of.

Aside from the fact that no one actually chose Andrew to write in the book, he just jumped in there himself

BtVS 10.04: Buffy to Andrew, “Andrew—You’re on book duty. Find it—get it—fix it.”

Andrew to Buffy, “Copy that. But what if Xander won’t let me have it?”

Willow to Andrew, “Don’t get violent. And don’t lie. Just talk to him, honestly. That’s how he got through to me when I went all Dark—”


* What suggests that Andrew Wells is not good at the English language and what suggests that he can’t write well?


* Andrew Wells knows multiple demon languages and he managed to be able to summon demons. There isn’t any hint that Dawn Summers is actually smarter than Andrew is. And Dawn is currently an emotional mess.

There also isn’t much hint that Giles is smarter than Andrew is. Remember that Andrew Wells managed to be so good at robotics that he could put Buffy in a Buffybot without Buffy even knowing she was in a Buffybot and without Spike even knowing. Andrew registered some patents, which makes him a lot smarter than Warren. Andrew was incompetent in BtVS S8 but Giles was far more incompetent. Anyway, Giles is an emotional mess and has hormones problems.

Andrew was the logical and rational choice to be on Vampr book duty.


* If you find Dracula pitiable, that’s your opinion. Outside of if Dracula could be useful to Buffy and Co. in the future, he should be killed.

- Dracula’s stuck in the mindset of his being royalty and the idea that he’s the ‘Lord of the Vampires’. That’s mostly simply megalomania. However, it’s not anywhere near as bad or dangerous as Cursed Angel’s attitude in BtVS S8.



@Wenxina

My quote: “In “Beneath You” (B 7.02), Dawn threatened Spike when she reasoned his chip was still working. It’s highly unlikely that she would have threatened a non-chipped Spike. Moreover, Dawn stands very little chance against New Vampires.”

I don’t know why you even tried to argue against that. I didn’t say the attempted rape had nothing to do with why Dawn threatened Spike; therefore, I don’t know why you brought that up.

In fact, [Dawn] states very clearly that she knows that she probably still wouldn't be able to take Spike in a fight, even with the chip.

What didn’t you understand from my writing this: “In “Beneath You” (B 7.02), Dawn threatened Spike when she reasoned his chip was still working. It’s highly unlikely that she would have threatened a non-chipped Spike.” ?


* BtVS 10.04: Regarding Warren Meers’s death, I reasoned Amy Madison saved Warren after Dark Willow did the ‘fire to nothing’ thing on Warren. I don’t see any other way that Amy could have possibly saved Warren. Warren would have died by magical means. Warren says the flaying itself didn’t kill him. He doesn’t say he never actually died. Amy could have probably done some kind of ‘reversing spell’ regarding Dark Willow’s ‘fire to nothing’ thing that she did on Warren. Then Amy simply used magic to keep Warren from dying and to keep him ‘together’.



@AndrewCrossett

According to the June numbers, Buffy #4 sold 19,365 copies, down 1,191 from last month. It came in at #115, 3 places up from last month.

I figure at this rate of decline, by issue #20 nobody at all will be reading the comic.

That number obviously isn’t the total sales.

I still consider that Angel’s remaining alive is the main reason sales have seemingly been depressed since BtVS S8. And that things are even worse after Season 9 because Angel seems to think he has a chance to be with Buffy again and Buffy and Spike still for no good in-verse reason aren’t together. Buffy and Spike want to be with each other, Buffy is horny, both aren’t dating anyone else, etc. Beyond that, Cursed Angel’s story in A&F S10 simply makes no logical or rational sense – what I repeatedly detail.

[Wenxina]

@Wenxina

My quote: “In “Beneath You” (B 7.02), Dawn threatened Spike when she reasoned his chip was still working. It’s highly unlikely that she would have threatened a non-chipped Spike. Moreover, Dawn stands very little chance against New Vampires.”

I don’t know why you even tried to argue against that. I didn’t say the attempted rape had nothing to do with why Dawn threatened Spike; therefore, I don’t know why you brought that up.

What didn’t you understand from my writing this: “In “Beneath You” (B 7.02), Dawn threatened Spike when she reasoned his chip was still working. It’s highly unlikely that she would have threatened a non-chipped Spike.” ?

You said that it was unlikely that Dawn would have threatened a non-chipped Spike. I was merely stating that Dawn claims that she more that likely still wouldn't be able to take Spike on even with his chip, and yet, she threatened him because her anger was strong enough that she didn't care about Spike's reaction. I brought up the attempted rape because that provided context for Dawn's anger. Not everything is about a smear campaign against Spike. We all know he did it, it's not a big secret.

* BtVS 10.04: Regarding Warren Meers’s death, I reasoned Amy Madison saved Warren after Dark Willow did the ‘fire to nothing’ thing on Warren. I don’t see any other way that Amy could have possibly saved Warren. Warren would have died by magical means. Warren says the flaying itself didn’t kill him. He doesn’t say he never actually died. Amy could have probably done some kind of ‘reversing spell’ regarding Dark Willow’s ‘fire to nothing’ thing that she did on Warren. Then Amy simply used magic to keep Warren from dying and to keep him ‘together’.

No one is denying the nature in which Warren died. However, he would have had to have died, even for a moment, in order for the First to take his form. Back in "The Long Way Home," Warren denies having ever died, claiming that Amy saved him with magic just before he died. Which was a retcon, albeit an unintentional one because Joss forgot his own mythology. He addressed the issue in a later lettercol and there is a throwaway line in "Retreat" Pt. 5 (I believe that's the issue) to address the retcon in-text, though it made for a clunky line.

[MikeB]

@Wenxina

* Again, I don’t know why you are continuing to argue against my points regarding Dawn’s threatening Spike in “Beneath You” (B 7.02). Anyway, your analysis is incorrect. The entire point of Dawn’s threat was Spike’s reaction. She essentially told him, “I don’t like you anymore.”


* I’ve never said that Warren Meers never died. For all we know, Amy Madison made Warren believe that he never died.

[Wenxina]

@Wenxina

* Again, I don’t know why you are continuing to argue against my points regarding Dawn’s threatening Spike in “Beneath You” (B 7.02). Anyway, your analysis is incorrect. The entire point of Dawn’s threat was Spike’s reaction. She essentially told him, “I don’t like you anymore.”

The point was, you said that Dawn only threatened Spike because she knew he had a chip. I pointed out that Dawn fully recognizes that even with a chip, she can't take Spike in a direct fight; i.e. even with a chip, Spike is dangerous. But that didn't stop her from threatening him. In short, I've provided textual evidence indicating that Dawn didn't just threaten Spike because she felt safe with the chip in place, she did it because she was furious at how he tried to violate her sister. That moment wasn't entirely about "Spike's reaction." It's a factor, yes, since they were both present, but I'd also argue that the moment was also very much about Dawn growing up and letting Spike know that she knows what he did, and that she'll protect her sister if she needs to.

* I’ve never said that Warren Meers never died. For all we know, Amy Madison made Warren believe that he never died.

Once again, I'll direct you back to your initial post. You challenged my claim that the whole Warren mess was a retcon. And it was. He claims to never have died in the first arc of Season 8. Couldn't be true because the First took his form. There's even a letter in the lettercol of a later issue where Joss basically said that he messed up. The whole "Warren never died" thing was a retcon but it was one that couldn't take because previous canon contradicted it, and fans were very not happy about it, which led to Joss' (sorta) apology, and then a couple snatches of really awkward dialogue in later issues to establish that Warren did die, but only for a moment, before Amy resurrected him. In other words, the first attempt at a retcon (Warren never died, even after being flayed and apparently incinerated) had to be retconned again (actually, he did die for just a moment) in order to fit the universe. Still, it was clumsily handled.

[MikeB]

@Wenxina

you said that Dawn only threatened Spike because she knew he had a chip.

You continue to do straw man arguments. I said: ““In “Beneath You” (B 7.02), Dawn threatened Spike when she reasoned his chip was still working. It’s highly unlikely that she would have threatened a non-chipped Spike. Moreover, Dawn stands very little chance against New Vampires.”

I don’t know why you even tried to argue against that. I didn’t say the attempted rape had nothing to do with why Dawn threatened Spike; therefore, I don’t know why you brought that up.” It’s in post #61.


* Spike left town after “Seeing Red” (B 6.19) and Dawn knows that. Dawn knows there is simply no credible scenario in which Spike hurts Buffy physically and Dawn afterward is able to set Spike afire. If anything, Dawn’s threatening Spike simply would mean that after doing whatever to Buffy that Spike would probably incapacitate or kill Dawn especially considering that it seems likely that no one but Spike and Dawn would know about her little “set you on fire” speech.

retcon
(shortened form of RETroactive CONtinuity; first made popular in the comic book world)

1. (original meaning) Adding information to the back story of a fictional character or world, without invalidating that which had gone before.

2. (more common usage) Adding or altering information regarding the back story of a fictional character or world, regardless of whether the change contradicts what was said before.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=retcon

Well, given these definitions, I concede that the Warren Meers thing in BtVS S8 was clearly a ret-con.

I’ve always assumed that the term “ret-con” as used in Buffyverse Boards meant that past stuff known was actually changed retroactively.

[Uncannyslayer]

2020-reread of Buffy the Vampire Slayer: New Rules - part four

I do not like the part about going Dark Willow, when the characters treat it like it is all fun and games, why would it have any impact on the readers?

Giles is little more than an everlasting source of exposition at this point. He has been the go-to guy for exposition before, but it is so overused after he has been brought back.

There is a lot of minion Xander here, and I do not like it. “I’ll buff your toenails. Nothing helps the creative process like shiny toenails. Then this’ll be a cakewalk”, is one of the worst lines ever in any season of Buffy. And Dracula is basically acting like a more competent version of Harmony now with all the vanity and the need for luxury.

Was that a Full House-reference from Dracula of all people?

I get what Gage was trying to do with Dawn here, it I would prefer if this had not been part of the season, and after the meaningful drama centered around Dawn in season 9, was it really needed?

The whole careful what you wish for-approach to the book does not strike me as funny, the situation with some characters writing in the book, while other characters are dealing with the consequences is intentionally played as a farce, especially when some of them have time to talk about their feelings mid-battle. I just don’t find it funny or meaningful at all, except for the fact that it establishes some of the rules regarding the use of the Vampyr-book.

The Dark Willow joke was already bad, when it was first uttered. The third time is not the charm.

[artan42]

2020-reread of Buffy Season 10 #04

• Where’s this ‘going Dark Willow’ thing come from? If it was going to have become a trope it would have well before now. It’s also not very funny as it was Willows loss of control following the deaths of Tara and Buffy and her subsequent grief almost destroying the world. It’s very mean spirited.
• Also, TV Tropes started off as a ‘Buffy the Vampire Slayer’ fansite so that’s a nice reference anyway.
• I was so caught up in the greatness of it in AS7 that I didn’t notice, but Giles no longer sounds like Giles. He just sounds like a generic posh person. Giles might have used ‘big words’ but his sentence structure and composition was far more relaxed than is being written for Child Giles.
• We knew Drac looked old as we’d seen it in BS8 but he’d have used a glamour rather than hypnotism to change his appearance.
• You’d think a book of all the magic in the world wouldn’t have room for notes. Especially as the nots appear to be about 1/3 of the way through.
• Willow counselling Giles on his language made me chuckle. The now child dynamic Giles has is really funny as well as serious. They’re playing it exactly as the show would have done. Drama and comedy.
• Buffy’s self-awareness about her own level of commitment is nice.
• If we’re to take what Dawn’s saying here as true (i.e. that she understands how she works correctly) then the reason behind her behaviour in BS5 and 6 was due to her having the memories of her life but not the feelings of it and the same thing is happening here.
• By about BS6 Dawn was already much taller than Buffy, yet in the comics she’s mostly shorter than her or the same size and it’s annoying.
• Impressive. Drac just decapitated a vampire with his talons.
• Okay. What?! Toenails? Eh!? What!? EH!?
• It’s interesting that the first proper realisation of the reversal of the usual dynamic Giles has is with Willow rather than Buffy.
• I don’t get what Andrew is driving at here (I know it does trigger Spike to reveal Dracs location but still…) even if vampires have a relationship with their own bloodline, Dracula is nothing to do with The Master’s bloodline and nothing to do with Spike.
• Sigh, another Dark Willow joke.
• A spell of cleavage would also make sense Freudian slip or not.
• I’m sure there was a reference to Monkey’s Paw in BS8 by Dawn (part of the Tibet stuff I think) and there, unlike here, they didn’t feel the need to exposit what the term means and trusted the audience to know.
• Oh, the Book doesn’t like retcons does it? The bloody cheek of it!
• A flashback to the Primordium and we see a Pure Blood daemon who will become important later, we also see people, not just people, but people with clothes and civilisation again, roughly dating the Primordium to around 10,000 years ago.
• The process to imprison or banish all the Old Ones and Pure Blood Daemons must take quite a while because Illyria remembers vampires so she must still have been free after Maloker sires the first vampires.
• Maloker isn’t a vampire though. If anything Drac should be turning into a Turok-Han here.
• I can’t say if Giles is correct here as we never get an indication of different levels of Old One but I think he means the most powerful of the Pure Blood Daemons cannot die as the most powerful of the PBD are the Old Ones.
• I was going to comment on Maloker calling them worms but then I remembered Illyria was quite relatably rude about vampires in AS5.

Very exposition heavy and very odd in terms of characterisation. I don’t get the Dark Willow gag, it’s forced and comes out of nowhere.