Buffy and Satsu: completely OOC

[spuffyspangellover]

Forgive me if there's already a thread on this, but am I the ONLY one who HATED Buffy and Satsu? I could NEVER picture Buffy and another woman together. It just doesn't make any sense.

Now I wanna preface this with this: I have absolutely nothing against the LGBT community. I love gay people, my best friends are gay, I graduated with a degree in Theatre and have been to several gay parades. I just want to clarify that my loathing of the pairing has NOTHING to do with my personal feelings on the lesbian community.

That said, Buffy the character would never sleep with a woman. Ever. POSSIBLY Faith, but even that would be handled so much better than Buffy/Satsu.

Anyone else have any strong feelings on this matter?

[Sire]

Look, I am gay and i agree with you,

It was a stupid plot line that didn't go anywhere... To say that Buffy would experiment JUST because she's a girl is in fact quite offensive. I tried to justify this plot line because I love Buffy (character and series) but i think they really dropped the ball with this one.

It was a shame as well, i feel it would've been much more interesting had the characters not slept together and we could've seen that relationship evolve with Buffy's knowledge that one of her star slayers had a big ole crush on her.

[Hallow Thorn]

The relationship did nothing for me. I have a lot of favorite characters that are gay (2 in my banner/ icon) and I'm looking forward to meeting the new gay guy this season, but Buffy and Satsu just came way out of know where and didn't feel real. I'm grown to really like Satsu now and look forward to see her again though.

[AndrewCrossett]

Couldn't disagree more. I thought it was the highlight of season 8. "Unexpected" does not mean "OOC."

I never really could understand why some people seem so, so threatened by the thought of Buffy with another woman. Really puzzling. Mass-murdering vampires make fine lovers, but heroic women don't?

A character who never does anything unexpected is a boring character.

Anyway, since we went through literally hundreds of posts on this subject back during season 8, and since the topic still irritates me to this day, and since there is precisely zero chance of it ever being a factor again, I'm certainly not going to get into another fight about it.

[spuffyspangellover]

@AndrewCrossett , I don't mean to fight about it. I'm actually very curious as to why someone would love this relationship so much. I wasn't around when Season 8 discussions were going on, so I never really discussed this. If I promise not to bash, and you promise not to be all shippy, I would love to have a civil discussion on this subject.

[Veiriti]

Yeah, I have to admit Buffy’s decision to have a sex Satsu was a bit unusual for me, because she always declares a sexual interest to men. But I didn’t hate her experience with Satsu and I’m even not annoyed of it at all. And yeah – that was just an experience for her and it doesn’t mean she is a gay. Actually Joss mention in his comments that Spike and Angel had their “one time” years ago and I don’t mind it – actually I’d love to see a flashback of it!
And Buffy sleeping with Satsu makes a sense to me – Buffy loves sex, but lived among women then. There weren’t young men around her then, except Xander… Well, eh, I’m a strait woman; I never ever had an experience with a person of my own sex, but if Xander was my only option I probably would prefer to have a sex with a girl instead with him, just like Buffy did.

[Darth Rosie]

I have to agree with @AndrewCrossett here: Also for me, it was one of the highlights of season 8. I love Satsu. I miss Satsu. I thought that their having sex was a completely natural progression. I've had intimate encounters with hetero friends of mine (while I was still single) that simply developed out of the situation. These are things that happen. And they can be truly enriching for everybody involved. And heart-breaking. I miss Satsu!

[Jay]

When anything unexpected happens in the comics, I always ask myself "Is this something that TV Buffy would do?"

So when it came to Buffy/Satsu, that answer was "Yes. Totally."

Buffy is a young woman. She was experimenting. Buffy says so herself that her time with Satsu was a phase; she never once identified as being bisexual or a Lesbian. The experimental side of Buffy has been touched upon on the show as she explored various things during its run. She tried doing the Bad Girl walk with Faith during s3. In s4, Buffy impulsively hooked up with Parker during college. She had her stint with alcohol. Then she met Riley and finally had a regular sex life.

I have no doubt in my mind that she would have continued exploring herself in later seasons, but by mid s5 and s6, she was forced to grow up and be Dawn's guardian. And even though Dawn was becoming more capable in s7, Buffy almost had no room to breathe with all the drama with The First.

Speaking of s6, I would like to point out that Buffy slept with Satsu knowing that Satsu was in love with her, even though she couldn't love Satsu back. This isn't exactly new ground--Buffy slept with Spike on and off for months when she was suffering from postmortem depression. And so Buffy slept with Satsu because "it was a slow year". See the similarity?

Buffy definitely has an open-minded outlook on sex because according to Spike (s6) and Angel (s8), Buffy is a bit kinky in the sack.

Plus look at the shit she dreams about.

[Veiriti]

That’s what I mean – her gorgeous men are gone, she was alone, Xander is not exactly… how to say… uh, her type of man. So the poor Buffy is having horny dreams about Spike and Angel.
Hee, it would be interesting Spike to meet Satsu in Season 9 and Buffy to tell him about them. I’m curious what would be Spike’s reaction.
Spike: “Well, luv, that bird’s hot, you have a good taste, just like mine. And… I’d like to tell ya… huh… I was intimated with The Old Pants once…”
Buffy: “Yeah, I know, I had a dream about …”
Spike: (opens his eyes with embarrassment): “Really?! You had a dream about us, pet… awww…”

[Jay]

Ugh....That scene you just wrote up is a little too gooey gloppy for my taste.

Anyways, I stand by my opinion that Buffy was just lonely, horny, and overdue in the experimenting department when she hooked up with Satsu. I think the aftermath was pretty well written within Wolves in the Gate, but Joss had to literally spell it out to us in #31 that Buffy isn't gay even though the topic was already revisited in #16 and #22. But I guess it made sense that he felt he needed to do that since she was about to have crazy hetero sex in #34.

[AndrewCrossett]

I don't have the energy to go through all of that again, honestly, civil or uncivil. It was the longest, most exhausting argument I've ever had in my 15 years on the Internet. The whole thing is there on the archived version of the board, if anyone cares to go through it.

To sum up my final (and unchangeable) position, then and now: Satsu was the healthiest and most positive sexual relationship Buffy has ever had, and having her as a girlfriend would have done Buffy a world of good; the notion that this was OOC doesn't work for anyone who knows Joss's opinions on the fluid nature of sexual identity; there was just as much screaming and protesting when Willow did it; the evidence in the comic before and after supports that Buffy really did care about Satsu far more than as a simple tension-relieving hump-n-dump, although she had clearly gotten over those feelings by "Swell," and definitely by "Turbulence." Buffy craps away yet another chance at happiness, as she will always continue to do until the day she dies. Ho-hum. Check off another box.

Since Joss already broke down one barrier by having a lesbian main character in Willow, it would have been cool to see him do it again by breaking the unwritten rule that "thou shalt have no more than one gay major character or couple at a time in any show, unless that show is specifically about being gay."

I continue to hope Joss doesn't take the predictable route and have Satsu hook up with Kennedy, in obedience to the other unwritten rule that "any two gay characters who appear in the same show must end up having sex (or at least wanting to), because gay people are exclusively defined by the fact that they have sex with each other."

[spuffyspangellover]

A healthy and sexual relationship? The most that's Buffy's ever had? Buffy and Satsu didn't HAVE a relationship... Honestly, barely a sexual one. Sleeping together TWICE isn't a relationship, that's one thing above a one night stand.

And the reason Willow being with women is okay is because she's a lesbian. Buffy did care about Satsu, but as a friend. Buffy was lonely, she needed to feel, much like her twisted relationship with Spike in Season 6. But that's it. If Buffy cares about Satsu in that way, if she truly thought they could've been in a relationship, they would've been in a relationship. It's that simple. Yes, Joss likes pain but it's painfully clear that Buffy had no romantic feelings for Satsu than just using her for sex. If you can find evidence that Buffy would've likes to be in a relationship with her, please tell me.

This is how I see it: their relationship unraveled too fat, the audience didn't really get to know Satsu or why she loved Buffy, so that was rushed. Next thing we know, Buffy's in bed with her. That actually pissed me off because I thought she would've learned by now that having sex with someone she didn't love (Parker and Spike) would've taught her NOT to do this, but there she was again. Terrible character development. Then, to add more pain on Satsu'a side, they slept together AGAIN, although they both knew they wouldn't be together afterward because Buffy doesn't like women AND she doesn't like Satsu in that way. Ugh, Buffy was such an awful person...

[AndrewCrossett]

Think what you like.

I honestly don't give a crap anymore about the whole thing.

[Rupert Giles]

I like it, I mean, the Batsu relationship. Just in case it counts. I don't need a particular reason to like it, and I just want to add three things:

a) They are lovely as a couple. They fit, IMO
b) Batsu was coherent, it was something that didn't even take me by surprise. I have never felt what Buffy was doing was OOC. It didn't seem strange to me.
c) Satsu was completely in love with Buffy. That was cute, wasn't it? So is good for Buffy to be with someone who truly loves her. Even if it's just about sleeping together and having sex twice. And concerning Buffy, well, as SMG said once: "good for her to have fun" (or something like that). Good for Buffy indeed. she deserved it.

[Veiriti]

A healthy and sexual relationship? The most that's Buffy's ever had? Buffy and Satsu didn't HAVE a relationship... Honestly, barely a sexual one. Sleeping together TWICE isn't a relationship, that's one thing above a one night stand.

I agree with that - as I've said above I'm not against Buffy/Satsu, but that was just a different sexual experience for Buffy, not exactly a relationship.

So is good for Buffy to be with someone who truly loves her.

Absolutely! And now (I mean Season 9) she IS with someone who truly loves her! But that is for another thread!

[Hallow Thorn]

OK! So I had another read of the Buffy/Satsu scenes for the first time since the issues came out... And just like Tara, Gunn and comic book Spike they have really grown on me. As random as I think it was, their arc had heart... I definitely want to see more of a Buffy/Satsu friendship and partnership again.

[kenzier]

When anything unexpected happens in the comics, I always ask myself "Is this something that TV Buffy would do?"

So when it came to Buffy/Satsu, that answer was "Yes. Totally."

I'm not put off by the Batsu thing at all really, but I CANNOT see TV Buffy going for this. With the exception of Buffy's sexual relationship with Spike in season 6, Buffy's sexuality and experimentation on the show were both pretty vanilla. When we left TV Buffy in season 7, despite her still being "cookie dough", I thought of her has being pretty well through with her sexual experimentation phase and ready to move on to more mature personal growth from within.

[TimeTravellingBunny]

I'm not put off by the Batsu thing at all really, but I CANNOT see TV Buffy going for this. With the exception of Buffy's sexual relationship with Spike in season 6, Buffy's sexuality and experimentation on the show were both pretty vanilla.

Well that's a pretty big exception!

Her sex life was vanilla up till the age of 21 and consisted of having sex just twice with guys who dumped her afterwards, and her first regular relationship - with Riley - which was very vanilla. She only really started exploring her sexuality in season 6, and we were explicitly told by the text that this was the best sex she ever had ("Wrecked", including the shooting script). She didn't have any sex on the show since.

It doesn't make sense for her to go back to having vanilla sex, any more than it would for a gay person to go back to heterosexual sex after they've realized they're gay.

When we left TV Buffy in season 7, despite her still being "cookie dough", I thought of her has being pretty well through with her sexual experimentation phase and ready to move on to more mature personal growth from within.

Learning about your sexuality is not "experimentation phase" that you shake off and go back to normal. It is a part of becoming mature and having personal growth.

Now, trying out different things sexually can end two ways- either you realize it's not really you, or you learn that it really is what you want and enjoy sexually. Her 'experimentation' with Satsu falls into the first category - it's a whole other kettle of fish to Buffy/Spike and it ended differently - she didn't think there was anything wrong with sleeping with a woman (after all, her best friend is a lesbian), she thought she may try it, she did, it was very nice, but it's not really her thing and she didn't feel the desire the repeat the experience (she just had a goodbye second time), and we don't see her wanting to have sex with women anymore.

That's completely different from season 6 when she kept coming back and couldn't stop despite hating herself for how 'wrong' it was what she was doing. Someone said once that Buffy/Spike were the real "queer relationship" and that Buffy at times was similar to a self-loathing closet gay person in a relationship with a flamboyant 'out' partner: the self-loathing, the shame, the keeping secrets and lying to her friends, feeling that the sex was wrong but being unable to stop. In the original script for Dead Things, Tara draws the comparison directly (saying she knows what it's like to lie to everyone about who you're sleeping with) and the term "coming out" was even used in Older and Far Away.

But Buffy is not actually gay or bisexual - however, there's nothing wrong with her trying to see if she might be bisexual. Satsu was someone who loved her and whom she liked and trusted, I can see her thinking 'why not try it? You never know how it may turn out.' After all, she had learned that life can surprise you and that you may end up loving people you never expected to.

[Skytteflickan88]

When anything unexpected happens in the comics, I always ask myself "Is this something that TV Buffy would do?"

So when it came to Buffy/Satsu, that answer was "Yes. Totally."

Buffy is a young woman. She was experimenting. Buffy says so herself that her time with Satsu was a phase; she never once identified as being bisexual or a Lesbian. The experimental side of Buffy has been touched upon on the show as she explored various things during its run. She tried doing the Bad Girl walk with Faith during s3. In s4, Buffy impulsively hooked up with Parker during college. She had her stint with alcohol. Then she met Riley and finally had a regular sex life.

I have no doubt in my mind that she would have continued exploring herself in later seasons, but by mid s5 and s6, she was forced to grow up and be Dawn's guardian. And even though Dawn was becoming more capable in s7, Buffy almost had no room to breathe with all the drama with The First.

Speaking of s6, I would like to point out that Buffy slept with Satsu knowing that Satsu was in love with her, even though she couldn't love Satsu back. This isn't exactly new ground--Buffy slept with Spike on and off for months when she was suffering from postmortem depression. And so Buffy slept with Satsu because "it was a slow year". See the similarity?

Buffy definitely has an open-minded outlook on sex because according to Spike (s6) and Angel (s8), Buffy is a bit kinky in the sack.

Plus look at the shit she dreams about.

I don't think it was about experimenting. I think there's a big chance that if Buffy had never meet Satsu, she would never have touched another woman.

I think the fact that there was no men around could be a factor, but also that Satsu was simply Satsu; a lovely girl Buffy connected with, and who loved Buffy. Just what Buffy needed at the time.

This is how I see it: their relationship unraveled too fat, the audience didn't really get to know Satsu or why she loved Buffy, so that was rushed. Next thing we know, Buffy's in bed with her. That actually pissed me off because I thought she would've learned by now that having sex with someone she didn't love (Parker and Spike) would've taught her NOT to do this, but there she was again. Terrible character development. Then, to add more pain on Satsu'a side, they slept together AGAIN, although they both knew they wouldn't be together afterward because Buffy doesn't like women AND she doesn't like Satsu in that way. Ugh, Buffy was such an awful person...

I don't know. We could argue for days about if Satsu was so hurt by this it shouldn't have happened or not, but since we can't actually ask the character "Do you regret it?" I think we might be jumping to conclusions, calling Satsu a victim. Both Buffy and Satsu seemed to enjoy the experience, even though Satsu wanted it to go beyond that. So this would actually be a good one night stand, good character development.

I'm not put off by the Batsu thing at all really, but I CANNOT see TV Buffy going for this. With the exception of Buffy's sexual relationship with Spike in season 6, Buffy's sexuality and experimentation on the show were both pretty vanilla. When we left TV Buffy in season 7, despite her still being "cookie dough", I thought of her has being pretty well through with her sexual experimentation phase and ready to move on to more mature personal growth from within.

Like, TimeTravellingBunny, I don't quite agree with this way of thinking. Partly because as I said above, I don't think this was about being with a woman, to experiment, but to be with Satsu. It's not about being vanilla or not. It was just sex with a person.

It wasn't about experimenting with Spike either, to "try something new". What Buffy did with Spike and Satsu was based on the situation and that Spike and Satsu were there in her life right then. With Spike, he was there, loving her, and she needed to "feel alive". With Satsu, she meet a nice woman, (who she may or may not have slept with under different circumstances) and because they connected, had sex.

[TimeTravellingBunny]

I don't think it was about experimenting. I think there's a big chance that if Buffy had never meet Satsu, she would never have touched another woman.

I think the fact that there was no men around could be a factor, but also that Satsu was simply Satsu; a lovely girl Buffy connected with, and who loved Buffy. Just what Buffy needed at the time.



I don't know. We could argue for days about if Satsu was so hurt by this it shouldn't have happened or not, but since we can't actually ask the character "Do you regret it?" I think we might be jumping to conclusions, calling Satsu a victim. Both Buffy and Satsu seemed to enjoy the experience, even though Satsu wanted it to go beyond that. So this would actually be a good one night stand, good character development.




Like, TimeTravellingBunny, I don't quite agree with this way of thinking. Partly because as I said above, I don't think this was about being with a woman, to experiment, but to be with Satsu. It's not about being vanilla or not. It was just sex with a person.

It wasn't about experimenting with Spike either, to "try something new". What Buffy did with Spike and Satsu was based on the situation and that Spike and Satsu were there in her life right then. With Spike, he was there, loving her, and she needed to "feel alive". With Satsu, she meet a nice woman, (who she may or may not have slept with under different circumstances) and because they connected, had sex.

I agree with that. I don't see Buffy "experimenting" with Satsu as a sexual experimentation "let's see what sex with a woman would be like". It was only experimentation in the sense "maybe I could really connect and have a relationship with this wonderful person even though she's a woman". There are people who think that it's person who matters, not which gender they are; and for some people, it works. But for many of us, the gender still ends up meaning too much to just overlook it. I don't blame Buffy for trying to see if she could overlook the gender to find connection with someone, even though she ended up realizing it could only work short term.

People seem so determined to paint Satsu as a victim and Buffy as some sort of Parker-like ruthless manipulator who decided "let's use this girl and dump her", when it was nothing like that. They had a friendship, they had a nice time, Satsu wanted more but she was still happy that she had something with Buffy and she was the one who initiated the goodbye sex even while knowing their relationship won't continue; she didn't seem to be regretting any of it. Like Willow pointed out, if there was any using, it went both ways. They both got something out of it. (As for having sex just with people you're already in love with - come on, that's an over-romanticized and old-fashioned idea. People have sex with people they just like all the time. Sometimes it grows into something more, sometimes it doesn't.)

And yeah, what happened with Spike certainly didn't happen because Buffy said to herself "let's try what sex with a soulless vampire I've fought several times would be like". But I never thought the problem with their relationship in season 6 was about Buffy loving or not loving Spike, it was about abuse (from both sides), codependency, lack of respect, Buffy's self-loathing and Spike's lack of boundaries, and a lot of other things that made it very unhealthy.