Is Angel IDW series really an Angel's Sixth Season?

[Rupert Giles]

Hi there,

I have a question rounding my mind since I have read the answers of Scott Allie to SA fans. It's something he says about future Dark Horse's Angel Series being or not being called Season 6. Specifically:


Scott: Our Angel title won't be Season 6, it will be part of the Season 9 program as a whole. There will be at least two regular, ongoing titles in Season 9, and Angel will star in one of them. Calling anything we do Angel Season 6 would be way too confusing—it'd negate everything IDW has done, which is not our intention. And it'd lead readers online to argue about whether Season 6 must happen concurrent to Season 8, and blah blah blah, I cannot even predict the ways in which calling it Season 6 would not work. The reason all these books will be part of Season 9 is that Season 8 massively changed the world for these characters, particularly Angel. The comics we launch next year will be referred to under the banner Season 9, in that they follow Season 8. If there is a Willow title, it will be part of Season 9, even though Willow has never had a single season of her own, much less eight of them. We are blurring the lines between the titles, because we see the characters all as existing in one world. Fortunately it's a big world.

So what! Isn't already the IDW Angel series supossed to be Angel's Season 6? Does that means that once and for all Angel ATF is no more than a canonical end of ATvS Season 5?

And if so, what's the status of the non-ATF IDW Angel issues?

What do you think about that? By the way, I hope that's not already posted. I'm new here :scared:
Greetings!

[angeliclestat]

Welcome to the Forum!

This is a tricky and thorny question. There are a lot of differing opinions on this subject. Joss Whedon gave the plot and guidance to the first 17 issues (After the Fall) of the series. This are official canon. After that Joss had no more involvement in the series until recently. To a lot of fans this means that the rest of the IDW Angel stories do not 'count', to others (like me:)) they do.

However it is not clear cut because recently when Dark Horse gained the rights back to Angel, there was some discussion between IDW, Dark Horse and Joss as to ways to tie the two series together, so that when the Angel series ends at IDW it will sync up with what happens in Season 8. That is why:

Willow shows up in the Spike series, the bugs and spaceship show up in Spike, and there are 'hints' to Twilight in the last Angel arc 'The Wolf, The Ram. and the Heart'

But because a lot of the plot lines that have been building over the 44 issues of 'Angel' are being resolved in this last arc, mixing with these 'future hints', then there seems to be confusion as to if the issues after #17 counts or not. IDW says it does...Dark Horse and Joss go so far as to say that they don't want to contradict what IDW has done in the Angel title. So gather from that what you will...


So to sum up there is no official answer. My personal advice is that if you enjoy the Angel title, then do as I do and consider the 44 issue run as 'Season 6' (This is my own personal belief so don't jump on me 'those that don't':)) If you don't want to then that's all good too:)

[Skytteflickan88]

Welcome RG.

ATF was never intended to be a season 6 (according to Joss in a interview, Angel ATF was the canonical continuation of season 5), but everyone started calling the ongoing series season 6, and I think IDW might be doing it too now. Not sure if they started it. I think that they didn't, but the people started calling it season 6 (I'm so damn bothered by it, specially when re-sellers do it) and then IDW started promoting it as season 6. Not sure.

Season 6 doesn't really seem like a season (as in 'TV-like arc'). Not compared to season 8. ATF seemed like a season 5 sequel, a end, and the rest of the comics were just random arcs, fitting the timeline, but not really a season. I guess I would rather call ATF more like a movie, like Serenity is to Firefly.

So, unless someone official, like Joss, or Ryall says it season 6, I won't call it that. I think I got my urge to whine under control too, when people call it season 6. It's a pretty easy way of naming the ongoing series anyway. I guess the re-sellers might have been smarter than I thought...

[Tanner]

I don't really think Angel comics were ever measured as a season, just as a continuation of the show.

[andremthefoozle]

Like the posters before me, I don't think the IDW Angel run *feels* like a complete "season" the way BuffyS8 has a season-long arc with Twilight and the Slayer army threads running throughout the 4-5 issue arcs. Therefore, I shy away from calling it Angel: Season 6. With that said, the canonicity of the comics is an entirely different debate: To summarize, After the Fall seems to be taken as canon based off of a quote from Joss blessing the project to some degree and his work providing the overall outline. The recent issues, The Wolf, The Ram, and The Heart as well as the Spike ongoing book, appear to be tied into BuffyS8 and therefore, even if not canon, appear to have a "more authentic feel about them" as described by some fans.

I guess the question is, when issues #1-17 and issues #39-44 are received as "pretty much able to be considered as canon" by readers, what does that say about issues #18-38? For me, until Joss and/or Co overwrites these adventures, they're part of MY understanding of who Angel is and what his story entails. To each person, they're view of the comics in their own, and even though I wish parts of the story didn't happen, it all fills the void between After the Fall and the start of BuffyS8 and so "they're cannon to me."

But, as stated many times, many ways: What's important is that you enjoy the stories. THAT's what matters.

[Tanner]

Everything after 17 I view as cannon until that gets in the way of future stories.

[Skytteflickan88]

With that said, the canonicity of the comics is an entirely different debate: To summarize, After the Fall seems to be taken as canon based off of a quote from Joss blessing the project to some degree and his work providing the overall outline.

I'm pretty sure I read a interview with Whedon where he says that it's the canonical continuation of season 5. I wish I had saved it.

[andremthefoozle]

I know, Skytteflickan88, I just can't remember where he said it and how canon it is (plus I'm too lazy to look it up right now). But I both remember him saying it can be considered canon, as well as when mentioned as a co-author or being involved he stepped further from the project talking of how he offered an outline early on and Bryan Lynch made it his own after that. That statement always makes me think twice before calling it canon even though he seems to have called it as much at other times.

But like I said before, I like After the Fall and thusly I count it as part of MY understanding of the Buffyverse.

[Wyndam]

After the Fall is 100% canon.

[jellymoff]

After the Fall is 100% canon.

LOL, why is this still a debate? Joss Whedon's name is on every issue of After the Fall.

[Jay]

I always considered After the Fall as part of the Season Five storyline.

So in my head I see it like this...

Season 1 (canon)
Season 2 (canon)
Season 3 (canon)
Season 4 (canon)
Season 5 + After the Fall (canon)
#18-44 and all related minis (pseudo Season 6/debatable canon)

[angeliclestat]

Whether people see post-After the Fall as canon or not, I don't understand how the whole 44 issues can't be seen as a 'season'. Mostly everything that has happened since the return from HellA has dealt with the fall out of that. Angel's newfound celebrity, Eddie Hope and his list, Gunn's guilt over the events, Connors animosity towards Gunn, Spike feeling lost and looking to find a purpose, and in the most recent issue
The revelation that the seasons Big Bad James was able to enter this dimension because of W&H shifting time to bring things back to where they were at the end of issue 16

So like season 4 outside elements changed the story as it went, but there is a complete story there.Also like all seasons there were stand alones which told their own story but thematically fitted into the season (Immortality for Dummies), comedy episodes (Boys and their toys), and arc episodes.

So because of that I find it easy to think of the 44 issues, plus the various side stories as a complete 'Season 6'.

[Jay]

Whether people see post-After the Fall as canon or not, I don't understand how the whole 44 issues can't be seen as a 'season'. Mostly everything that has happened since the return from HellA has dealt with the fall out of that. Angel's newfound celebrity, Eddie Hope and his list, Gunn's guilt over the events, Connors animosity towards Gunn, Spike feeling lost and looking to find a purpose, and in the most recent issue
The revelation that the seasons Big Bad James was able to enter this dimension because of W&H shifting time to bring things back to where they were at the end of issue 16

So like season 4 outside elements changed the story as it went, but there is a complete story there.Also like all seasons there were stand alones which told their own story but thematically fitted into the season (Immortality for Dummies), comedy episodes (Boys and their toys), and arc episodes.

So because of that I find it easy to think of the 44 issues, plus the various side stories as a complete 'Season 6'.

That's how I used to think, but the tone After the Fall sets is completely different from #18+.
#17 definitely works as a Season Five finale.
While 18+ deals with repercussions of LA coming back from hell, it can still work as a new season with a new villain and story arc. It's no different how Buffy Season Eight deals with the repercussions of Buffy activating the new Slayers in "Chosen", but still being its own Season.

Also, canon-wise, looking at After the Fall as a supplement to Season Five works best because they're both absolute canon. Anything other than that falls in murky waters. You can either accept "Angel Season Six" as part of the main story or completely disregard it.

[Rupert Giles]

Wow, thanks a lot for the answers (and the welcome!). well, I'm absolutely certain that ATFis 100% canon. We're rather dealing wiht the question of Angel ATF being the end of Season 5 or being an independent Season. After the answer of Scott Allie (if not earlier) it appears to me that ATF is definetely the first: the end of season 5. That's ok. But the most important thing is that Scott Allie do not consider the non ATF issues to be a Season 6 (otherwise, He would not have doubted if what he and Joss want to make with Angel at DH should be called under Season 6; He would have called it directly Season 7). And there is the canonical question. I'm agree with angeliclestat. Angel ATF is canon. That's right. But Why in the name of Joss shouldn't we take the Epilogue issue (23) as canonical? Should we consider to be canon Spike ATF but not the Drusilla issues (24 y 25)? Should we suppose that there was this Twinkle book (which Spider writes) while there was never be the Last Angel IN Hell movie? And why? Only because Joss didn't say: ok, it's canon? Definetly a tricky question. And yep. I know: it's open to everyone to take the complete run of Angel IDW stories as canon. It's up to everyone interpretation, ok. But it absolutely matters to me what Joss take as canon and what he consider to not be. It matters to me a lot. And I can't help it (Damn it!) Furthermore, it is the strangest thing for a fan devoted to canon (like me LOL), because finally the non ATF issues might not be canon, but they fit. They all fit. Oh, guys, my head is about to explode!!!

[angeliclestat]

Haha-ah look at it this way, anything that happened in 18-44 is not gonna be disregarded directly by Joss as far as I can tell.


There will never be a scene where Angel says to Faith "Ya know what's never happened to me in my long long life?.I have never been abducted by a corporation and my blood taken from me in order to turn rich people into vampires..."

:-)

[Rupert Giles]

Haha-ah look at it this way, anything that happened in 18-44 is not gonna be disregarded directly by Joss as far as I can tell.


There will never be a scene where Angel says to Faith "Ya know what's never happened to me in my long long life?.I have never been abducted by a corporation and my blood taken from me in order to turn rich people into vampires..."

:-)

Yeah, this is definitely a good point of view. I take it :nods:

But still, I would appreciate if Joss would say something about this matter :D.

[Paul]

Equating comic book series to television seasons will never really work, which Buffy Season Eight proved by trying too hard to mimic the season format. You're forcing a square peg into a round hole.

That said, it's natural for us to try and compare them and I myself view Angel: After the Fall as the equivalent of a film or a Torchwood: Children of Earth-style "mini season". Then I view Angel #18 - 44 and its spin-offs (Only Human, Lorne, The Devil You Know, Illyria) as a full-fledged season on it's own. So I guess I would structure it:

Angel Season One
Angel Season Two
Angel Season Three
Angel Season Four
Angel Season Five
Angel: After the Fall ("Season Six")
Angel #18-44 & spin-offs ("Season Seven")
Angel: Season Nine ("Season Eight")

[Wenxina]

I don't think that IDW ever set out to do a "Season". They did "AtF," which Joss expressly said couldn't be called a "Season." Then, they took the end of "AtF" as a jumping point, and went the route of producing an on-going story.
The term "Season" to me has become a convenient shorthand. It's a way of clinging on to a familiar concept, to ease the transition for fans of the shows into the world of comics. As Paul pointed out, trying to do the whole "one arc equals an episode, but a one-shot also equals an episode, but oh wait, 5 issue arcs are a limited-commercial episode..." is just an inanely futile effort. It just doesn't work. You're more than welcome to try (and believe me, MANY have tried, some going so far as to show how a 40 issue run can fit into the 22 episode framework of a traditional season; I think they were probably discouraged by the addition of one-shots and the MDHP shorts).
And... if the IDW books right now count as a single season, then it's a season that's dragging on longer than S8 was, and I didn't think that was possible. :lol:

[Rupert Giles]

Yep. I agree with Wenxina and Paul... to a certain extent. What you say can be applied to Angel IDW ongoing series, cause sometimes it seems the issues are pretty isolated from each other. But that's not because the comic format. When I read the Buffy S8, I have a one-independent-season feeling. Yeah, it is true that a Tv episode is not equivalent, neither to a comic issue, nor a complete arc or wathever, but I think that's not the point. Whether comic or TVs, the important thing is that you can understand the whole run as a season, as a cycle, and that's what I perceive when I read the Buffy S8. I don't care if it's comic. To me has exactly the same value. And I admit that's more difficult to say concerning Angel IDW. But that's not because the comic stuff, the adaptation of comic to TV.

[Tanner]

I'm really not a fan of this season format for comics. I don't see why it's gotta be Season 8, Season 9, Season 6, The end of season 5. I view season 9 as more of the title for the series(s) than a television season, especially if Angel and spinoffs are gonna be called Season 9.

[andremthefoozle]

I know the analogy isn't perfect, but I like the idea of "Seasons" in comics for the sheer fact that I can hold one issue (let's say Buffy #38) and know it tells a story, a story that is a part of a larger story (the "Twilight" arc), which is part of the big, over-arcing story line that I've been following (Season 8), which in turn is part of a larger mythos and character's journey ("Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and the Buffyverse). I enjoy the fact that together, those 40 issues come together to tell a self-contained story that in itself, contain smaller stories.

In some of the other comics I read, one story lasts three issues and then doesn't get mentioned again or only vaguely referenced. It's like a reset-button is pushed because a new writer wants to tell a Batman (or whoever) story their own way with the characters as they understand them. With Buffy, these different writers were all working to tell part of the same, bigger story just like on the television show. And for that reason, I think the term "Season" worked. But "Angel" felt different to me. "After the Fall" worked like a wrap-up miniseries-type event... but then it started to turn into another on-going series: Aftermath for 4-5 issues, then the storyline with the Con, "Only Human" with Illyria and Gunn. I liked what I was reading, but besides all referring back to "After the Fall," it all seemed rather separated off from the other stories. Willingham's stuff all fit together (somehow...) because he was writing it all and knew his master plan. Only when "The Wolf, The Ram, and The Heart" started up, and we got our final set of writers does it feel like the whole series is coming together and giving the Angel Comics the send-off they deserve.

So, I don't think IDW's Angel can be called a "season" like DH's Buffy can be, but it does follow Season 5 and comes before Season 9, so I'll leave the naming to others but to me, it goes like so -
Angel: Seasons 1-5
Angel: After the Fall
Angel: #18-44+offshoots
Buffy: Season 8
Buffy: Season 9 - Angel

[Lostsoul666]

Personally I think that calling the Buffy comic Season 8 was a dumb move.
Anyway After the Fall issues 1-17 are canon. I personally view the Gunn issue(#23)canon as well.
It will probably be a moot point since I doubt that Dark Horse will ever talk about the events of the Angel comics.

[angeliclestat]

Personally I think that calling the Buffy comic Season 8 was a dumb move.

From a marketing point of view it was genius though.It gave it an instant link to th show. I agree with you though- I've always hated the 'Season' title.

[Tanner]

For season 8 yes, but I don't see how that helps for season 9. If I hadn't read season 8 and I saw 9 I wouldn't read it, and if I had read season 8 I would know.

[Jay]

Calling it Season 9 would prompt the casual reader to go read Season 8 first. Besides, Season 8 was so successful that Season 9 is an obvious logical choice to call the sequel series.

[Rupert Giles]

Anyway, I don't like the pretension of calling all the titles (over all, Buffy and Angel) as "season 9". I don't see what's the point here (well, kinda see what the point is, but I disagree). Scott basically says: "so much has changed in the world, for Buffy and specially for Angel. Thus, the two series have to be named the same way". Well, I don't see it this way. Or, at least, we must admit we have already seen many changes in the world for both characteres in the TVs, although they kept separated in independent seasons. That's not a good excuse. I think the only reason for this lays herein that Scott and everybody at DH don't want to be on bad terms with IDW. In the one hand, they don't want to deny what IDW did with post ATF series (otherwise, they (DH) would call post IDW Angel series as "Season 6", but they won't). In the other hand, they don't want to recognize it as canon either (as a season 6, for instance -LOL-). Thus, I can predict post ATF Angel IDW series will be forever in a sort of limbo.

[Lostsoul666]

I'm interested in knowing if Dark Horse is going to view the Gunn issue as canon, or if they are going to do there own verision of how Gunn woke up from his coma.

[Wenxina]

Dark Horse has shown no inclination towards disputing what IDW has done so far with the characters. They've even gone as far as to co-plot the last arc of the ANGEL series so that there'll be no more discrepancies (well, glaring ones, at least) between their continuity and IDW's.
No, they probably won't go out of their way to announce that the post-"AtF" stories are retroactively canon, but they won't dismiss it either. Which is as much as any company can be expected to do with their competitor's product. But by attempting to synch up the storylines and giving the SPIKE series some canon grounding (i.e. Spike's ship and bug crew), Dark Horse is making is possible to view the IDW stuff as canon, if one so chooses. And there are many out there who do view the IDW stuff as canon. Not just "AtF," but also everything after it. Some arrived at that conclusion way before any of this licensing hoopla went down. Led to a bunch of "canon canon" vs. "subjective canon" debates.

I understand the rationale for the "Season 9" title, and I'm okay with it. I don't agree with those that claim that Angel will be diminished in any capacity, seeing as he will get his own book. Basis for the argument that his story will only be in service to Buffy's remains to be seen, and as yet, remains an unwarranted claim by some. Is it so unforeseeable that both Buffy's and Angel's story will depend on one another. They belong in the same universe, as in both stories occur within the same universe.

[andremthefoozle]

Like Wex said above me, I totally agree with the decision of running DH's Angel under the banner title of S9. It makes sense since it will exist in a clearly post-Buffy S8 world. Also, having it all exist together totally avoids having to try and lump IDW's work into a season or write it off. Now they can just move on and have the books line up.

On the shows, events were mainly centered around Sunnydale or LA with little ever stretching outside city limits. Here however, magic has disappeared FROM THE WORLD. And so, "the thing about changing the world... is that once you do it, the season numbers are all different."

[Dorotea]

I honestly don't understand why the season numbers are even that important. Although AtF - all of its 1-17 issues scripted by JW remains by all counts Angel S6 - as it was written from the script based on never materialized tv A6. All else done by IDW can be considered to belong to the same pool of vaguely semi-canon (or not canon at all) novels and comic books that existed in parallel with tv series. Even DH's Angel Omnibus is not strictly canon, (and so far I have no desire to own it although I might change my mind). I might dislike the comic continuity S8-9 and wish it did not exist - as I bet many others - but I still accept what's plotted by Whedon as canon and all else as not.

[Rupert Giles]

Yeah, the numbering question is no big deal, it is just that, concerning Angel, sounds kind of weird to me jumping from 5 (or 6, according to angeliclestat or you, Dorothea) to 9. But that's all. More relevant is the canonical question.

[angeliclestat]

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with the rationale of placing Angel under season 9 and I will never refer to it as Season 9.

Call Buffy 'Season 9' all they want, but Angel should have another title, 'Season x' or whatever.

[Tanner]

It bothered me at first, but now I just think of it as a title instead of an actual season number. If anything I would prefer they just keep calling it season 8.

[andremthefoozle]

Yeah, the numbering question is no big deal, it is just that, concerning Angel, sounds kind of weird to me jumping from 5 (or 6, according to angeliclestat or you, Dorothea) to 9. But that's all. More relevant is the canonical question.

If we want to rationalize, we can call Angel's last season on TV 5, After the Fall + the Epilogue is 6, all the other IDW books are 7, and the unpublished 8 is what the Fang Gang was doing while Angel was Twilight and Spike off with the Bug Crew. Now, Angel 9 is in line with Buffy 9 and they can all exist as Season 9.

I realize it's nowhere near perfect and may even bother people, but the name is more convention than anything else. I just was able to calm a friend and reassure them with that logic.

[Rupert Giles]

Hi,
Look at what I have found in the buffy wikia. It is about a quote of Joss talking about doing Angel After the Fall and calling it under "sort of Season 6". I guess we have a never ending issue here, haven't we?
Here's the specifical quote:

In fact, I am talking to Brian Lynch who wrote Spike: Asylum about doing a sort of Season Six of Angel – a canon, post-Angel story. I was really impressed with Asylum. Brian really got the humor and the rhythms and told a story really well. I thought, “If they can do this, why shouldn’t they?"

And then the link:
http://buffy.wikia.com/wiki/Canon#cite_note-4

Oh God. I know, I know, it's no big deal...except for me

[Tanner]

He talked about it kind of being a season six when it was still in the planning stages, but than later said it was not a season six.

[Rupert Giles]

He talked about it kind of being a season six when it was still in the planning stages, but than later said it was not a season six.

Do you have any reference of Joss saying that? It is just curiosity, but I would like to know what he did say precisely.

[Tanner]

It's quoted in the "Why Angel?" thread but I'm not sure where the quote comes from.

[Lone Wolf]

Joss was recently asked a question by a fan at SDCC if they were going to see how Spike got his ship in season 9. I thought he was going to say read IDW's Spike but he did'nt, he said they will in season 9. So Spike not canon now?

[Tanner]

Only After the Fall is.

[AndrewCrossett]

We were told that the explanation of the Bug Ship given in the Spike series was directly from Joss, and therefore considered canon. Joss's comments seem to contradict that.

It might be that Joss was just assuming that readers haven't necessarily read the IDW stories, and the Bug Ship story will be recapped in season 9. Or it may be that he's changing it. If so, I'm sure IDW, Brian Lynch, and the fans of the Angel comics won't be very pleased.

[Lone Wolf]

We were told that the explanation of the Bug Ship given in the Spike series was directly from Joss, and therefore considered canon. Joss's comments seem to contradict that.

It might be that Joss was just assuming that readers haven't necessarily read the IDW stories, and the Bug Ship story will be recapped in season 9. Or it may be that he's changing it. If so, I'm sure IDW, Brian Lynch, and the fans of the Angel comics won't be very pleased.

I agree. Not only that but I only buy whats canon, that's why I bought IDW titles after atf becouse I thought they were and joss and DH saying you'll get the answers in IDW and now looks like changing it, makes me feel like I've wasted money. what about spike after the fall that canon?

[Lostsoul666]

The way I see it is that only Angel After the Fall, Spike After the Fall, and the Gunn story in issue 23 are canon. I really hope that Joss doesn't go back on his word about After the Fall being canon.
It would kind of be a jerk move on Joss part since Brain Lynch has had to keep telling people that ATF was canon.

[Hallow Thorn]

I agree. Not only that but I only buy whats canon, that's why I bought IDW titles after atf becouse I thought they were and joss and DH saying you'll get the answers in IDW and now looks like changing it, makes me feel like I've wasted money. what about spike after the fall that canon?

I really think if you have the money to spend, you should buy them anyway. Spike isnt one of my favs, but yet I still love "Spike: after the fall" and (almost) anything written by Brian Lynch is an instant enjoyable read. The last IDW arc is also pretty good.

[Lone Wolf]

The way I see it is that only Angel After the Fall, Spike After the Fall, and the Gunn story in issue 23 are canon. I really hope that Joss doesn't go back on his word about After the Fall being canon.
It would kind of be a jerk move on Joss part since Brain Lynch has had to keep telling people that ATF was canon.

I'm not to sure about issue 23 becouse it was writen after atf and did not include joss, i hope it is canon thou, brian said joss thought spike atf was a good idea and should write it so that should be canon. still confusing on Gunn's status.

[Lone Wolf]

I really think if you have the money to spend, you should buy them anyway. Spike isnt one of my favs, but yet I still love "Spike: after the fall" and (almost) anything written by Brian Lynch is an instant enjoyable read. The last IDW arc is also pretty good.

Don't get me wrong I do have everything IDW did after atf and the last arc was great and i love haunted and only human and drusila. I like to think it could be canon but Aftermath ruin's it for me, it's a good story just kate wasn't kate and Angel in atf gave Gunn a card saying he's back at the Hyperian and he's in a church? and 3 issues later back at the hyperian? with no explanation. that ruins the angel countinuty for me.