Twilight/James theory.

[Whobazrebirth]

Ok so now that we know the full extent of Twilight (or what we are meant to for now) and at the same time have the events of the Angel series coming to a close I had this weird theory:

Angel's future before Twilight has him MIA allowing for james to create this Demon farm thing, with portals to to other dimensions, clearly meaning Angel's original intended future was not to be twilight since all these things are contingent on magic.

Since we know that twilight will eventually come about without even reading the rest of the Angel series one can predetermine the end of his series as follows: In the Future he learns how to defeat james, he defeats Rowant and either by the help of Wolfram and Hart or Illyria goes back to his present, dispatches james and mutes his intended future, setting him self up for Twilight.

What if he failed though? or couldn't be miraculously teleported back in time ? Makes it seem like his role as twilight was less the intervention of the Universe and more luck and happenstance. Or maybe it was all an intricatly planned effort by the Universe. Either way it's food for thought.

[Nathan]

Interesting theory. But can i ask: Is the Angel series cannon? I didn't know any collaboration had occurred between Joss and the writers of the Angel series. Am i wrong? I haven't actually read the Angel series, i intend to but...

[Whobazrebirth]

Interesting theory. But can i ask: Is the Angel series cannon? I didn't know any collaboration had occurred between Joss and the writers of the Angel series. Am i wrong? I haven't actually read the Angel series, i intend to but...

well it's a tough question. The writers at IDW know about Twilight and tailored there story so it wouldn't disrupt it but no direct collaboration has been done. On top of that Buffy season eight didn't talk about Angel's series at all so it means that it could have happened and she just doesn't know about it. really until they say it isn't canon or until stuff in season nine contradicts stuff in the Angel verse its what we in the buffyverse call implied canon: means the IDW stories are tied to canon stories like ATF and season eight and are canon by association until specifically contradicted.

[Shane]

Whobazrebirth:Neat theory! Too bad Angel #42 dents it somewhat. I preferred James as his primary foe.

I think IDW are telling their stories so they transition into Season 8 in a way their readers would be (a little) more comfortable with and still interested in following Angel's journey. IMO, the current Angel series is doing really well in getting Angel to a place where it'd be possible for Twilight to take advantage of him. At this point, Angel is already allying himself with villains. And according to Angel #42 even Illyria is thinking more clearly than him. I think all these smaller parts will eventually add up to form a much bigger part. Like Voltron.

[Whobazrebirth]

Whobazrebirth:Neat theory! Too bad Angel #42 dents it somewhat. I preferred James as his primary foe.

I think IDW are telling their stories so they transition into Season 8 in a way their readers would be (a little) more comfortable with and still interested in following Angel's journey. IMO, the current Angel series is doing really well in getting Angel to a place where it'd be possible for Twilight to take advantage of him. At this point, Angel is already allying himself with villains. And according to Angel #42 even Illyria is thinking more clearly than him. I think all these smaller parts will eventually add up to form a much bigger part. Like Voltron.

true and I'm not sure i'm ready for the day a voltron made of the top buffyverse/Angelverse characters is assembled lol. As for my theory it was more in terms of looking at the overall verse and less the realistic notion that these stories are plotted by multiple individuals who don't keep each other in mind as the stories unfold. I know that. Everyone else knows that. It's more a what if thing.

[Shane]

Oh, the second part of my post wasn't about the theory, just about how the two publishers may be collaborating (another topic that was raised).

But haven't IDW said they've had talks with Dark Horse so their stories would sync up better? If anything, that reinforces the theory since they (the story and the publishers) both have similar purposes regarding Angel. (In the theory, Rowant could easily take James's place.)

[Whobazrebirth]

Oh, the second part of my post wasn't about the theory, just about how the two publishers may be collaborating (another topic that was raised).

But haven't IDW said they've had talks with Dark Horse so their stories would sync up better? If anything, that reinforces the theory since they (the story and the publishers) both have similar purposes regarding Angel. (In the theory, Rowant could easily take James's place.)

Yea i'm sure the last arc and season 8 will be vaguely cohesive. I only meant that alot of the overall Angelverse story details, like stuff not specifically related to Angel himself is generally glazed over and that's how you know the two stories are only loosely connected.

[Shane]

Oh, okay. I haven't read the issues leading up to the current arc so I wouldn't know.

[TerryB]

I haven't heard that the ongoing Angel series is canon. It's "canon-fodder" until IDW joins w/Horse so that the entire Angel Fandom doesn't abandon IDW in the last few months of its life.

However, the Spike series - not the first one - but the second one - the 8 issue is supposed to be canon because it links Spike up with the timeline of his Ship's entrance into the buffy comic. He's supposed to find and meet up with Willow in this series - which is why she is not surprised to see him (and his Ship) when they enter Season 8.

[Tanner]

They are trying to make them tie-in, but that doesn't necessarily make them cannon.

[angeliclestat]

Can I suggest that the topic of this thread isn't about the C word, and if you want to make an issue of that there are copious other threads for that?

-------------

Its not a bad theory-I wonder how much this future has to do with the future Angel saw where Buffy loses. It's possible that there will be more tie-ins in the last 2 issues, but I wonder if Myr and Rowant have anything to do with Twilight.

[Whobazrebirth]

Can I suggest that the topic of this thread isn't about the C word, and if you want to make an issue of that there are copious other threads for that?

-------------

Its not a bad theory-I wonder how much this future has to do with the future Angel saw where Buffy loses. It's possible that there will be more tie-ins in the last 2 issues, but I wonder if Myr and Rowant have anything to do with Twilight.

Rewind and huh? Which future does Buffy lose? I'm having a brain fart on this one lol.

As for Myr and Rowant my theory is sort of that their presence in Angel's life sets him on the path of Twilight but not anything direct. More inadvertant than anything.

[angeliclestat]

Well in the Riley one shot Whistler talks about lots of 'possible futures' and he says that in one of these Angel has told Buffy about Twilight, without hiding and doing everything he did in Season 8, and they "work as a team, fight side by side" and they "lose the war side by side."

In the flashback where Angel comes through a portal it seems that Angel has come from a 'future' - one where LA is not in good shape.He says "I flash back to the LA that I lived in, that I tried to save, and for a moment it seems like it never happened. That we never lost the war' Now the question is - is that future the one that is going on in the Angel ongoing right now? Or is it more related to Twlight (ie the future in which 'they lose'), and in what order do the flashbacks come in?

[Whobazrebirth]

Well in the Riley one shot Whistler talks about lots of 'possible futures' and he says that in one of these Angel has told Buffy about Twilight, without hiding and doing everything he did in Season 8, and they "work as a team, fight side by side" and they "lose the war side by side."

In the flashback where Angel comes through a portal it seems that Angel has come from a 'future' - one where LA is not in good shape.He says "I flash back to the LA that I lived in, that I tried to save, and for a moment it seems like it never happened. That we never lost the war' Now the question is - is that future the one that is going on in the Angel ongoing right now? Or is it more related to Twlight (ie the future in which 'they lose'), and in what order do the flashbacks come in?

WOW very insightful I really need to reread the riley one shot.

[angeliclestat]

And I was just thinking-in issue 42 we saw James using his portal machine to open up gateways to various dimensions (one has one where New York is in ruins). Is it possible that Angel will see the 'alternate future' where he and Buffy 'lose the war' through this machine?

[Whobazrebirth]

seems more likely that Wolfram and Hart will end up showing him things. They seem to like having a handle on who and what commits evil and why. Hell they might even think they are setting him up for the path where in he and Buffy lose and in turn put things more in evil's favor.

[angeliclestat]

Ya you're probably right-I would think that the next issue will reveal more.